Talk:Negative responsiveness

Rights on the text

From the page:

Some parts of this article are derived from text at http://condorcet.org/emr/criteria.shtml

Some other pages have stated this, and said "used by permission". Can someone confirm that this use is by permission?

I did not seek explicit permission (though I may get around to sending a thank-you email). The linked page, at the very bottom, gives more than enough permission to re-distribute under the GFDL. Indeed, the way that he phrased it there was no need to explicitly acknowledge his work, but I thought it would be good to do so, both to thank him, and because his site is a useful resource to link to. DanKeshet 21:23 7 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! That's good news. -- Anon.

Don't confuse Condorcet criterion and monotonicity criterion

The comment that "several variants of the Condorcet method (including Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping and Maximize Affirmed Majorities) are monotonic" is misleading since there is no connection between the Condorcet criterion and the Monotonicity criterion. If you only want to say that the Condorcet criterion and the Monotonicity criterion are compatible, then it is sufficient to say that Cloneproof Schwartz Sequential Dropping and Maximize Affirmed Majorities are monotonic. -- Markus Schulze

Hmm, I don't think the para as it was asserts a connection between the Condorcet Criterion and MC. And though CSSD and MAM are different, they really are minor tweaks on the Condorcet Method and usually make the same decision, so it seems weird to write about them as if they were as different as Plurality and Borda. Is there any wording which mentions that these two are both Condorcet methods that would be acceptable to you? — ciphergoth 14:05, 2004 Nov 21 (UTC)

ciphergoth asked: "Is there any wording which mentions that these two are both Condorcet methods that would be acceptable to you?" No. The fact that CSSD and MAM satisfy the Monotonicity criterion must only be used to promote CSSD or MAM. But it must not be used to promote Condorcet methods in general or even a concrete Condorcet method that doesn't satisfy the Monotonicity criterion. -- Markus Schulze 21 Nov 2004

As ciphergoth, I fail to see how the sentence you talk about promotes Condorcet methods in general.--Chealer 03:36, 2004 Dec 10 (UTC)

Old edit war

I've reverted from a lot of edits by user:polytope. Polytope: you are wellcome to contribute to articles, but your material was really not appropriate, for at least the following reasons:

1) Wikipedia has a strict Neutral point of view policy which your discussion of the CVD definitely did not fit under. Please read that link for more information on how to construct NPOV pages.

2) It was very technical and frankly incomprehensible to me. You have to do a much better job of explaining your terms.

DanKeshet

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Your decision is unfair, wrong, and unreasonable, so I intend to upload the page again, after at least 1/2 of a day or so. The spirit of fairness would be more present if I was the person editing the definitions. I expected details comments. Here are problems with your decision. My reasoning is more carefully done than yours. Note that the edit that you did is here: http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Monotonicity_criterion&diff=0&oldid=1126285

I assume you do not want to even read this, but do however wish to keep censoring with an indifference to how thoroughly an audience moves against you if publicity shows up. I find your decision to be unreasonable since it has been made without an obvious relationship to the facts or evidence. That is plain since except for the mention of the CVD, no other comment relates back to the text of the page. That refers to grounds #1 and #2. The decision to replace the page instead of editing it is found by me to be unreasonable in respect of ground #2 since it seems that you could have satisfied yourself by altering one or both of the words "[IRV is] promoted [in USA]" and "[the CVD] complains [about...]". Also you refused to provide reasoning by e-mail after I requested that. You had two grounds but the weights were missing so the significance of your failure to comprehend what I wrote is something that I now do not have. Any of my text could lucid and optimal though may misunderstand. You may refer to this for the theory of how to make decisions about me: <A HREF="http://www.ijs.co.nz/fairness-standards.htm"></A>.

Decisions should be accompanied with reasoning and reasoning is too inadequate to be present. I do very much suspect that you had an improper purpose for taking such a strong action over that article. I had not used a wikipedia before. I note that your initial friendliness fast became a lockout where I could not get fuller information about your reasoning. Your website is remarkable in carefully censoring out the idea of monontonicity (http://www.channel1.com/users/dkesh/green/voting/), yet it seems to aim to describe principles of preferential voting (and fails completely since none of those can be ported over to mathematics in my opinion). The fact censoring of censoring out that same anti-CVD topic is indicative of a consideration of an irrelevant factor (categorized under improper purpose). I requested (using private e-mail) a statement of the reasoning that was fuller and I never got any. Your argument was that I should write here at this page; that I now write to, and your grounds were "I don't read my e-mail very often." (you wrote on about 10-July-2003). That was a harassing decision. You intended to communicate only using private e-mail and you explained that since you receive and read your e-mail quite well (but a little slowly), then I must therefore avoid using e-mail (and use the wikipedia). That can not be followed and it is unreasonable. I was later? clear in stating that e-mail should be used and the wikipedia must not be. Why didn't you identify your error of telling me to use this wikipedia page ?. Ground #2 implied that you did not understand my mathematics page.

As I wrote at the Election Methods List, you made a mistake at your website indicating that you lack a knowledge of the principles of 2 candidate preferential methods. It was about "representation" in 2 candidate elections. I assume that you test is oppressive and harsh since setting an impossible hard standard for me: a requirement that you understand me when I write for the public with the plainest clarity I can achieve. I only have your word for it that you failed to understand my page. I reject the idea that you could not understand all of the page. Perhaps your 1st ground was oppressive since it told me to look at a policy document but it unreasonably failed to identify a problem or error in my text (or my behaviour) that would be guided to a better state by the policy document. I.e. you warned of how I could improve under policy without identifying what should get better. The CVD comment about non-neutrality with the CVD appeared to be untrue.

I accuse you of making an improperly discriminatory decision because you have worse reasoning and harsher actions for authors of monotonicity pages and me (so far). You maybe do not want your Green party to keep losing. Your decision was more adverse to the public interest than this: you made a lot of major changes. I have a diff program and it is convenient for me to undo only some of changes. Most of my complaint is about your lack of reasoning rather than the decision to erase the document and restore a worse one. Nowhere do you give an opinion on the difference between the documents. You decision was wrong to replace one document with another and have no consideration for the 2nd new document. The reasoning is required by me and there was consideration of you preferred version. I don't know why you prefer it. It is certainly less useful. The http://www.condorcet.org/ text does not reject the Alternative Vote (you wrongly opted for that), since mysteriously Mr B.C. confuses a preference with a candidate. That is unexplained. I have asked Mr B.C. to tell the Election Methods List and not enough time has passed. It seemed to be deliberate since the word "alternative" was used. So there is some improper purpose to the text you prefer (in addition to the possible improper purpose of not letting a monotonicity page harm Greens across USA over an unknown period of time). Greens should not be advanced by unthinkable definitions of others. That is a bit neutral on Greens and able to cause harm to members of the Election Methods List. Already Mr Eric Gorr has been confused by a definition from the condorcet.org website. My new version that I will upload is here, only in the box at the top: http://www.ijs.co.nz/irv-wrong-winners.htm The topic is mathematics and they are detailed. If you aer not, then you should quite withdraw. There is also a private dispute where I intend to comment adversely on your personal website but only fairly and accurately.

Craig Carey, New Zealand (no advice that I be anonymous) 'research at ijs.co.nz'. Wed 16-Jul-2003

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Craig,

Responding to just a few of your points: I was perfectly reasonable in refusing to provide additional reasoning by e-mail; there is nothing that says I should spend my time responding to personal e-mails about wikipedia, especially not after you accused me of being "perverted" and "corrupt" and suggested I was taking bribes from user:RobLa. Also, judge my contributions on their merit, not on my supposed political views about voting systems. In any case, your assumptions about my views are inaccurate, sometimes wildly so.

On to your actual contribution. Here are my specific problems:

1) In your definition, you introduce the concept of a "weighted vote", without any explanation whatsoever of what that is. Also, your text is gramatically incorrect, ambiguous, and frankly incoherent.

2) The section titled "Centuries of fair voting ideals lost as use of IRV and STV spread" is chock full of hyperbole, and inappropriately placed. If you want to discuss the results of IRV, it would be better placed on the Instant-runoff voting page. But don't be surprised if your section is heavily edited there, too. In addition, you introduce the concept of "vote-negating" with barely any explanation.

3) The section titled "A human right to have a vote" is pure hyperbole, and belongs nowhere in an encyclopedia. If this were an actual tact that some people had taken, appealing for changes in voting systems to the UN under the "equal suffrage" clause, then we could as an encyclopedia, report that. We can not engage in pure rhetoric, though.

4) The section titled "Parameterized 3 candidate method has IRV/AV be 33% outside of the fair region" has more unexplained jargon, as does the section "Dual of shadowing stays-losing polytope is a normal vector constraining polytope".

5) The section titled "Monotonicity is not best for theoreticians" is inappropriate for an encyclopedia, because we are here to report on how people study the monotonicity criterion, not argue that they should study it another way.

These are not all the problems I have with your text, but they are a start.

DanKeshet 13:51 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Requested move 27 October 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. There is currently more support in favor of moving to the proposed title. Whether to discuss alternatives is a separate discussion, but one that is worthwhile. (non-admin closure) 𝚈𝚘𝚟𝚝 (𝚝𝚊𝚕𝚔𝚟𝚝) 17:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

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Negative responsiveness paradox → Negative responsiveness – Opening this up for discussion to refine a previous bold move from monotonicity criterion a few weeks back, see also previous section discussion other possible options, which include Additional support paradox, Less-is-more paradox, reverting back to the old title, or possibly inverted versions of the suggested titles (e.g. monotonicity failure/anomaly or positive response/iveness). There is an argument from Closed Limelike Curves to favour the negative as it seems more intuitive, and no consensus on whether there is a clear common name in literature. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:49, 27 October 2024 (UTC)— Relisting. FOARP (talk) 15:44, 4 November 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 02:34, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Elections and Referendums has been notified of this discussion. Alpha3031 (t • c) 00:10, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Monotonicity criterion

I'd say go back to the original name of monotonicity criterion. That was the stable name, and reading through the talk page on here half of the reasoning for the change was because the mover wanted consistency with the names of the pages no show paradox and multiple districts paradox, which upon further investigation into their own edit histories were also moved by the same person from their original names of participation criterion and consistency criterion respectively, which makes it a move that is based on their own previous undiscussed moves. Considering that this user is currently facing an WP:AN/I created by User:SarekOfVulcan in large part due to their practice of moving pages with minimal discussion, and that, by their own admission there, that they did not know that there was a different policy for moving than for regular edits, I would say that all three articles should be moved back to their original names. 180 Degree Open Angedre (talk) 11:37, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

I support returning to the monotonicity criterion with "negative responsiveness paradox" as a redirect, as well. Wotwotwoot (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Move to either negative responsiveness or additional support paradox. – Closed Limelike Curves (talk) 01:04, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Monotonicity (social choice)

I think monotonicity is the most common term used for this. I would prefer a more general & constructive article about monotonicity in social choice, hence the (social choice) disambiguation, rather than framing it specifically as a paradox or pathology or even criterion.

It could certainly be worth a mention of the other terms that rules without monotonicity are sometimes said to exhibit "negative responsiveness" or even that it is called a "paradox" sometimes, but I would not title the article this. redirects from negative responsiveness as suggested by @Wotwotwoot look fine by me as well. Affinepplan (talk) 03:02, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 16 April 2025

• Negative responsiveness → Mono-raise criterion
• Multiple districts paradox → Join-consistency criterion
• Best-is-worst paradox → Reversal symmetry

– Last year these three pages were moved from their earlier names of "Monotonicity criterion", "Consistency criterion", and "Reversal symmetry" (as was "Participation criterion"). Two of the stated justifications for these moves were that the terms "monotonicity" and "consistency" are vague and can mean multiple things and that the pages should be named consistently. But these changes created an inconsistency between these pages and the other pages on voting system criteria (which are named after the criteria themselves and not the paradoxes that occur when they are violated). And the vagueness of the terms "monotonicity" and "consistency" could be addressed by simply making the titles more specific. "Monotonicity criterion" could have been renamed "Mono-raise criterion" or "Monotonicity criterion (electoral systems)" and "Consistency criterion" could have been renamed "Join-consistency criterion" or "Consistency criterion (electoral systems)".

As shown in the pages' histories, I tried to fix this. I moved "Best-is-worst paradox" back to "Reversal symmetry". I requested that "No-show paradox" be moved back to "Participation criterion", which later happened. I moved "Negative response" to "Mono-raise criterion" (which required editing to restore the page's earlier language). And I moved "Multiple districts paradox" to "Join-consistency criterion". However, the user who made the initial changes (Closed Limelike Curves) reversed most of what I did. They moved three of the pages back (but couldn't move back "Participation criterion") and reverted the aforementioned edits to the one page.

I apologize if my actions have come across as aggressive, but in my opinion the pages "Participation criterion" and "Reversal symmetry" were fine under those names and the other two pages should have names that, while precise, are consistent with those of the other pages on voting system criteria. Discussion is welcome. But I do want to note that as it stands the page "Negative responsiveness" has the same paragraph (about monotonicity violations in proportional representation systems) appear twice in different sections. One of my reverted edits fixed this by removing one of the duplicates, and it would need to be fixed again in a future edit. I would do it myself, but I might as well let people first discuss which location is more appropriate for the paragraph. Thank you for your input. Man of Steel 85 (talk) 03:25, 16 April 2025 (UTC)